James Gunn Addresses THE BATMAN And THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD Fan Confusion; Casts Doubt On Damian Wayne Plans

@WalletsClosed - I meant he literally just proved it. How may time on here did we all complain about all the characters being stuffed into Superman confusing the general audience only for the movie to come out and it be totally fine. Same with the continuity issues with Peacemaker, nobody cares they just go with it because it’s really not that big of a deal to the average person

@WalletsClosed - his point is that the fanatics are the ones over thinking it while the general audience just watch a movie or tv show they’re interested in and take it for what it is and not really think about the justice league now being the justice gang in peacemaker. General audience goes with the flow where as comic fanatics almost look for “inconsistencies” and then complain about it incessantly.

@SpiderParker - well worded, my friend.

@SpiderParker - damn dude, that's wisdom ... of like biblical proportions.

@SpiderParker - Zack Snyder was the one doing it for a living back then. And the fans who thought they knew better turned out to be right.

@SpiderParker - You're saying this like Gunn succeeded where Snyder failed. MOS made more at the box office.

Even BvS was successful, but that's the movie that screwed the pooch in the opinion of the fans. Obviously not all fans, just the ones who knew better than Snyder. Then the DCEU bellyflopped into oblivion. They were right.

The main complaint was not introducing characters and elements to an audience in the normal fashion and then having these characters cross over in a Justice League movie, like Marvel had done and like the comics had done before them.
Of course there were other complaints about the way characters were portrayed, but it's the advice about basic studio strategy that's important to consider rather than smaller artistic decisions.

Important advice like not having two Batman franchises competing against each other. The fans will choose one over the other. Fans are tribal like that. There are already fans who hate the Batverse but love the DCU and vice versa. That division already exists.
Why would you want to half the fanbase for each franchise? That means half the money from that demographic each time.

And the GA won't care about either universe because neither one of them "counts". You need a focused unified universe to get the GA onboard.
James Gunn's generalization of them not thinking as hard as we do is a warranted generalization. It means they don't care that much. But that won't work in his favor like he seems to assume it will. It means they are starting from less thna zero. They don't care about this geek stuff. So you can either be inviting by having everything make sense or alienating by telling them that they have to think of Battinson as a different universe. They don't want to do that, they're not wired that way.

It's not that they can't do that. It's that they don't care enough to do that. They'd rather just not be into it at all. Not watch any DC thing at all.

If Snyder had taken the sound advice from the fans he could have avoided the complete and catastrophic failure of his universe. Gunn could do the same, but he's not one for taking advice. He always knows better. He's infallible.

Now Feige/Marvel Studios, they did things the way fans have been saying for years that things should be done and they went stratospheric.

@SpiderParker - It's funny that you use the term 'mental gymnastics' at the end of all that. Maybe your subconscious trying to tell you something?

You were actually comparing two movies with similar themes to two Batman movies.
Even two Snow White movies or two Hercules movies from different studios that were actually competing with each other on purpose with one clear winner each time is a Reed Richards level stretch.

Sherlock Holmes is a public domain thing of course lots of people are gonna do their version. It's not a big franchise like the MCU. And I can only think of the RDJ movies. The BBC had a TV series sure, but come on dude. This isn't at all the same thing and deep down you know it isn't. A TV series... on the Beeb smh... You think that's why the Sherlock Holmes sequel flopped? Oh no wait, you were trying to make the opposite point, okay.

And do I really have to remind you that Deadpool & Wolverine made a billion last year or that The Batman made more than Superman during Covid or that we didn't even need to adjust Man of Steel's gross for inflation? But okay, so MOS made more than Superman because of Marvel and Superman didn't do so well because Marvel put out 3 flops this year.

Got it. You win, lol. Superman was more successful than Man of Steel after all. Doh!

@SpiderParker - So now you're blaming the decline of the entire industry. You know results are better than excuses. Results like all the cbms I mentioned (and more) had within the same period of decline. You said after 2019 right? Deadpool & Wolverine was 2024.

And it was an actual multiverse movie. It was about the multiverse. Gunn's secondary Batman won't appear in a multiverse movie. Also the characters in Deadpool & Wolverine were characters that didn't even appear in the MCU due to rights issues. Two different studios with rights to separate Marvel properties competing with each other. X-Men being a different universe to the MCU is no different than DC being a different universe or No Strings Attached being a different universe to the MCU, lol.
And I really doubt that normies knew there were two different Quicksilvers without you telling them that. Neither was actually called Quicksilver. One was an American called Pete who was a teenager in the seventies and a mutant. The other was an Eastern European called Pietro who was a teenager in the teens and enhanced by an Infinity Stone and was also a twin (which the other one wasn't). To the GA they were two completely separate and distinct characters that just happened to have the same superpower.

You are really clutching at straws here. When two Batmen spells disaster I'll be here saying I told you so and you'll be here performing mental gymnastics to tell me that the failure was due to various other reasons and not to the fact that there were two Batmen that alienated the GA.

Having two versions of the same characters is like an incursion of two universes. One or both must die. Sonyverse flopped completely once it was made clear that it was a different universe to the MCU (and the MCU did kind of go to shit soon after). DCEU flopped completely after Joker. Joker 2 flopped after The Batman.

But I don't think Superman's lack of success was due to the MCU films flopping this year. Again cbms have come out during "Superhero fatigue", Covid and the general decline of cinema and done really really well.
You say that it is due to Marvel's recent failures but then you also say the first Snow White film flopping didn't affect the second Snow White film later in the year. Make up your mind.

You can continue to use mental gymnastics to come up with excuses but Superman still didn't make as much money as Man of Steel at the box office, even unadjusted for inflation which means that less people went to see Superman than Man of Steel. Far less. That's an actual fact.
Man of Steel had a much bigger audience than Superman. Fact. It was far more successful with the GA than Superman.

@ObserverIO - Actually, I never said the DC movies failed due to Marvel's recent failures, you are twisting words. I said before covid, even subpar movies performed well due to Marvel's success that created that particular environment where anything and everything was getting a movie and doing good.

That's not the same as saying Marvel is failing so others are failing. In fact, right now, the whole industry is failing. I just said that Marvel lifted the genre high and everyone else enjoyed it and now that the industry is failing, it is affecting everyone including Marvel and DC.

People are choosing very carefully what they wanna see in theaters and what at home. And, either you skimmed through my comment or you didn't grasp what I said, but in 2019, movie industry as a whole made over $10 billion more than it did in 2024, without inflation. That has never happened before, in fact, before COVID, there has never been a year where the movie industry as a whole made less money than the previous year. The industry was every growing and never in slump. It's a fact and I suggest you to verify it.

And no, I didn't have to tell the "normies" anything. In fact, even in theaters, that's all I heard people discuss. I have been to almost all Marvel and DC movies (yes, even the ones I hate) before COVID, in the first week, I have seen the reactions personally so maybe its a thing about where you live but people who check out these movies aren't dumb. Right now, no one gives two fly F's about checking the movies in the theater, including myself. Even friends of mine who were DC fans, kept saying the same thing that Snyder is F'in up and DC needs saving. Every new news gave them hope, as it gave me hope and then the movie came out and hope was lost. And then this repeated for the next DCEU movie.

The multiverse is not the only way to create interest, Batman is quite good at creating interest by itself. I would much rather prefer Pattinson being in DCU, even as a different version than the one from Reeve's universe as I don't think that people are stupid enough to recognize the difference that they need two different actors to signify two universe, although, we could do without the solo DCU Batman movies. But that doesn't mean this is a bad idea either. Plenty of comics ran side by side, there's room for it as long as the product is good, and doesn't matter which Batman movie is better, it's very likely that fans of one will flock to see the other and only help the box office. Could one bad Batman movie affect the other? Yes. But who can say for sure? Anything you and I say would just be a guess. There's plenty of movies where one didn't affect the other while elsewhere, it did. The only problem for certain is if people are willing to see the movies in theaters and if the industry as a whole can recover. That's the only obstacle.

"X-Men being a different universe to the MCU is no different than DC being a different universe"
And the same applies to two Batman universe.

And you may say whatever you want, but GA wants to forget MOS, they preferred Superman and it did in fact make more profit than MOS even during the slump, preference of streaming over theaters, the world being against US politics, the boycott mentality against anything that is perceived leftist or woke and even while being sandwiched between two other potential blockbusters. It might not have made a better box office but certainly, Superman made more profit than MOS!

Anyway, you can think whatever you want. But in the end, the movies success or failure won't be thanks to GA having less IQ to differentiate between them, that I'm certain about. Maybe that would have been the case two decades ago, but right now, that's just not a possibility as people have gotten used to even crazier things like - two different X-Men franchises colliding, two different Studio's two different franchises colliding, two actors playing two versions of the same character, same actor playing different version of the same character or same actor playing two entirely different character in the same universe.

@ObserverIO - I kept an open mind like I said, 'Every new news gave me hope and then the next movie came out and hope was lost and this repeated for many movies.’ I didn't bash the movies before it came out or lose hope right after MOS. I stated the flaws but hoped they fix things by the next movie. I gave Snyder the benefit of doubt until BVS came out. You F'up once, you didn't know better. You F'up twice, then you neither knew better nor wanted to know better. How many times he F'up again?

Unless Gunn F's up twice, I'm gonna give him the benefit of doubt. That's the leniency I gave Snyder, despite his first F'up being colossal.

While you correctly noted that ‘Snyder should have taken advice’, and that ’Gunn could take advice but isn’t one for it’, but he doesn’t seem to need it right now, nor does he seem to ignore them. His first movie did well. He might do something about the complaints or were planned to be resolved. His biggest crutch is he is too involved with his fans, if he plans to do something but feigns ignorance, fans take it as confirmation. He can’t just spill every beans. We won't know until his next projects. Debunking is not committing. Just have to wait for the implementation, it might even be Pattinson as DCU Batman.

If audiences can track the convoluted DCEU, X-Men, or lengthy MCU storylines, they can handle two different Batman continuities. This is Batman we are talking about, arguably the biggest pop culture character. He has been milked to death, yet people seem to return for decent projects. Your assumption that people won't invest because of "contradictory storylines" may not be shared by the GA, I certainly don't feel that way. If it gets confusing, people will re-watch, boosting HBO Max. The movie won't flop for this reason, 100%. It may flop if it's trash or too cartoonish but not for this.

It’s a fact neither of us know for absolutely certainty if it will be successful or not. The evidence shows, it could go either way but there's a strong possibility that a rising tide lifts all boats.

It might not seem like it but I’m not really a Gunn fan as he irked me during his time at Marvel and I can certainly see him throwing subtle shade at various people like Snyder (which I don't hate but seems to be influencing his storytelling), Reeves and Marvel. But I just don't like people judging others based on a their personal life history, some of which they have already moved past or people complaining and judging about things beforehand. Keeping an open mind is very important for movies to succeed.

Else, you risk creating a narrative and judging them without merit before the movie even comes out. You're essentially fooling yourself into believing something untrue and making up your mind before seeing the film. This is something we certainly don’t need when the industry is failing. I’m genuinely worried that CBMs and movies in general might die in theaters. I’m not defending Gunn, I’m defending the movies and CBMs. People have already failed America by making wrong choices and being manipulated by narratives, and I don’t want to see that happen again here. Although, honestly, it seems like a lost cause as people here seem impossible to be reasoned with.

@ObserverIO - I'm not enabling Gunn, I just don't see a problem with it right now. Could it be a problem? Yes, but who can say for certain? I think it's equally likely to be a good idea. Since the Reeves universe isn't universally loved, offering another option isn't bad, it keeps both fans happy, potentially turning them into fans of both.

Alternatives are - to not have DCU Batman or force Reeves to join DCU. Do we really want another Ayer's SS or Raimi's SM3 situation? If a older Spider-Man franchise's sequel came out, would people be unable to keep up? Will they complain why 2 Spider-Man? About those cinematic universes, that was exactly my point. X-Men movies had messy continuity but were still successful for two decades. DCEU made no sense from the start but still went on for a decade. Marvel was already hard to keep up by halfway through Infinity Saga, yet people were invested in it for at least 22 movies.

Did Marvel lose audience or are they fine waiting for streaming? Marvel had some decent projects after Endgame but people can't connect. The problem isn't complexity but, as much as I thought this wasn't an issue, most leading characters aren't attractive enough while the attractive characters are getting poor movies. Which is not a problem with Batman, as he is widely beloved so as long as its a good flick, people will be interested. But if you are convinced that Gunn is not listening to fans, what exactly didn't he listen or what exactly was the mistake he made that he needed listening? If its just this then its out of his hands.

@ObserverIO - Actually, before COVID, it took 4-6months before a movie hit VOD let alone a streaming platform you are already paying for. Right now, you can wait around 30days (like Superman) but in general 60days (like The Fantastic Four) to be able to watch it on VOD while by 90days most movies hit SVOD. The wait is much shorter so many fans can just choose exactly what they can wait for while a must see in theater like D&W is an exception. In fact, I didn't even watch D&W in theater.

Reboot might not fix things as the industry climate is counter-productive. Everyone is betting on their own streaming platforms and shooting themselves in the foot.

Also, I'm a fan of Reevesverse, but I'm still excited about DCU's Batman, albeit cautiously as Gunn's vision might not work for darker characters without any comedic element like Batman. But, since his universe is already rich, it would also be easier to do a Arkham type story while tapping into multiple story threads of a Batman at his peak. So which group do I come in?

If they could figure out a way to keep Pattinson in both universe, it would be the best of both worlds. Show subtle differences like Reeves universe is set in his younger years of a similar but different universe while DCU is not. It would not restrict either and they could choose if they want to pull some elements or choose to pull nothing but still keep the cast. I mean, its not like Gunn isn't doing that already with his DCEU to DCU thing he got going on. That's the only thing I hope for but I'm sure they have plenty of time to come up with something and his debunking is not something that confirms his intentions. Sometimes, it's good to discuss, hope but be surprised in the end if it lands. People get tired of getting the same old as much as getting not what they want.

So, if its two totally different flavors, that's fine. If it looks the same but taste's different, that's fine too. Let's just wait and see, no need to judge and make up your mind before a plan is set in motion. If you are a fan of Reeves' Batman, would you be unhappy if DCU's Batman surprises you and you end up being fan of it too?

@SpiderParker - So of course I wouldn't be unhappy if a secondary DCU Batman surprises me and I end up being a fan of that version.

But I would lament the oncoming death of Gunn's DC reign because of the simple strategic decision to have a secondary Batman.

@SpiderParker - That's exactly why they shouldn't be doing this.

They're acting like it's public domain already! When it becomes public domain, when any character becomes public domain, they lose officialdom in the eyes of the world. The world doesn't look at it as a franchise anymore. So no version of it will be that important after ut becomes public domain.

Like Dracula. How's the Dracula movie franchise going these days. And yes Sherlock Holmes. A successful movie here and there does not make a franchise. Scooby Doo Vs Frankenstein is not an exciting crossover anymore. Becuase these character can and do show up in just about anything.

When you own an IP that affords you the privilege of having the official version.

DC are acting like there's another studio that shares the rights or something. Like they should be competing and saying don't watch their version, watch our version.

Once these characters are public domain there is no more official Superman or Batman, etc. That's it. They're Frankenstein. They're Robin Hood. They're a dime a dozen.

Recently DC have been acting like their properties are public domain, offering numerous versions running alongside one another and competing for an audience's investment in their version. And other versions then suffer. But most importantly, all of them suffer because the audience then views these properties as lesser, like public domain.

DC's recent struggles have been brough about prematurely. This really is their last chance to have a strong, focused product. Their last chance to own the official Batman movie franchise.

The official Batman movie franchise won't exist soon. And it doesn't seem to exist right now the way they're acting. It was bad enough when the Joker, Batverse and DCEU franchise were all stepping over each other. If they have literally two separate solo Batman movie series coming out one version after the other then they might as well hold their hands up and declare a free for all because this is exactly what it's gonna be like once Batman is public domain.

@SpiderParker - They didn't make a profit from all those films with Batman in. Flash flopped after The Batman. And even The Batman should have prolly made a billy. It's Batman. But the brand has been diluted as I've said. It feels less official because they're not presenting us with one definite version but multiple conflicting versions instead. I think Justice League might have flopped too.

And Reeves vision for his Crime Saga doesn't have to be compromised at all by existing in the DCU. If tomorrow James Gunn decided that The Penguin was hard canon it wouldn't affect that show at all. It would remain exactly the same and I'm sure Gunn would let Reeves make the rest of the saga the way he wants to without having to reference metas.

You do realize that Batman: TAS and Justice League Unlimited was the same universe right? Why can't they do the same with The Batman and the DCU?
And the reason Spider-Man's MCU movies are basically Team-Ups is because that's the contract they have with Sony. If Marvel owned Spidey they might let his character breathe a bit more.
You can have something be self-contained and also exist as part of a shared universe. Like Clayface for example.

@SpiderParker - You say The Flash flopped because of the impending universe reboot. Baby, The Batman WAS the universe reboot. That's the main reason why it and every other DCEU movie surrounding it flopped. In fact every DCEU movie after Joker flopped.

The politics of Zaslav, Gunn isn't the sort of thing that regular people know about. Hell most of 'em didn't even know about the Ezra controversy. He wasn't that famous. The script was unaffected by the writer's strike.

You say it flopped in spite of Batman. It flopped in spite of Michael Keaton Batman! That thing should have made NWH money. And you say that if The Batman II is successful then it would help the DCU Batman? Well here's proof that The Batman 1 didn't help the DCEU one iota.
I'm giving you evidence that contradicts your narrative but your confirmation bias won't accept it. This isn't guesswork, it's already happened. I predicted it would happen and it did. It will happen again.

The Batman is already working in tandem with a shared universe with The Penguin and other s=upcoming spin-offs. The showrunners of The Penguin had to build off the continuity established in The Batman and in turn The Batman will have to respect the continuity of The Penguin.
It's also set in 2022 whereas current DCU is set in modern day 2025 and onwards. So anything a DCU film does (such as killing off Joker) wouldn't affect the Crime Saga anyway because it would all happen afterwards. Also Matt Reeves would be a producer on any upcoming DCU Batman movie and would have a voice in what happens.

@SpiderParker - So you only want them to listen to your "Whimsical demands" then.

You gave me 9 reasons why you thought it failed. Only two of them are valid (Ezra controversy and the fact that the universe had already been rebooted twice and was a dead franchise). Unless you really think the movie failed because of reshoots?

Hey do you know why NWH failed? It was because of reshoots and covid and the fact they had two old Spider-Men in a multiverse movie and the fact that it had bad visual effects and because Disney bought Fox and because of the writer's strike that happened afterwards and the changing plotlines and script rewrites and the fact that Disney shelved a few films here and there and zero promotion of the two biggest draws in the movie not to mention zero press due to covid.
See how silly that all sounds? Especially considering the film made so much money.

I am unaware of what the "Snyder fiasco" was though. You mean the Snyder Cut thing? How does that affect The Flash at all?

James Gunn is doing The Batman II in the same way that Matt Reeves oversaw The Penguin. That's unavoidable. He's in charge of DC Studios. Everything is under James Gunn's purview.
And like I said, Reeves will be a producer on any DCU Batman project, like he is on Clayface. He will have the same oversight that he does on The Penguin.

But still you're worried that a character being alive post-2025 would somehow doom the integrity of the project and "Kill it creatively". You have so little faith in Reeves as an artist. Maybe it would inspire creativity.

You don't seem to have much faith in Nolan either. You're saying a Chris Nolan Batman film would be shit if it were connected to the same universe as Man of Steel. It's possible that those films would have been exactly the same with maybe an easter egg in the background somewhere. But even if they weren't, Nolan would have found a way to make a good movie.
Like Patty Jenkins found a way to make a good Wonder Woman movie. Like Gunn found a way to make some good shit in the DCEU too.

Also Nolan was smarter than any cbm fan gives him credit for. People (like Matt Reeves) focus on how he didn't want Bale to be Batman in BvS, but forget that he killed the Justice League: Mortal movie because he knew that two Batmen would soften his franchise's impact.

@Saintsinnister - the fans are going to see it no matter what. It’s the general audience that you really have to get. That’s where the good word of mouth comes into play. The fans at this point are set in place.